27Five: An Opinion

While an additional wheel size to choose from is a point to consider, I also believe that what the wheel size offers in the first place is perhaps even more important to consider. I mean, who cares about a choice if it doesn’t do anything better than what we have? Here’s my take on what 27five might have on offer. Disregarding any “marketing hype” that has already been spouted, by the way.

The reality is that 27five won’t be “better” than a 29″er, at least in the areas that make owning and riding a 29″er “worth it”. Think about it. A 29″er has roll over capabilities that are due to it’s larger diameter. All the good things about 29″ers are first and foremost tied to it’s diameter. Therefore; a smaller diameter wheel will have less of what is good here. My take: If you like/love 29″ers, you most likely won’t be impressed with 27five.

Okay, what about where 29″ers supposedly are bad? Tight cornering, acceleration, and weight? Well, if that is the case, (and all of those points are legitimately up for debate) then why not ride a 26 inch wheeled bike? It’s quite obvious that a high end 26″er will be able to be had right off a bike shop floor today that will score highly in those categories. My take: A 27five will never be able to out do a 26″er in these areas if a 29″er can not either. Again, the traits are tied to the wheels diameters here, so logically this has to be the case. And the point about 26″ers having been hashed out long ago and having a superiority in choices can not be overlooked either.

Finally, following this to it’s conclusion, you have a choice in 27five that can either be seen as a compromise between 26 and 29, or “the best of both worlds”, depending on your outlook. Certainly 27five will have some features that are attractive, but my question is will it be a difference that is noticeable? Is the mix of some big wheeled features and small wheeled features going to be a good one, or will it just “muddy up” the outcome? Only ride time will discern this for me, and there is something in the works that if it comes to fruition, will allow me the chance to try out my theroies for real on a trail.

After the determination has been made about performance, a determination about the choice can be made. It’s always good to have choices. As long as they make sense, anyway. Only time and public opinion will be able to help clear that up. In the meantime, lets ride!

It’s all just bikes anyway, right?

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No Responses to “27Five: An Opinion”

  1. bloody tongue Says:

    Argument from ignorance
    The two most common forms of the argument from ignorance, both fallacious, can be reduced to the following form:
    • Something is currently unexplained or insufficiently understood or explained, so it is not (or must not be) true.
    • Because there appears to be a lack of evidence for one hypothesis, another chosen hypothesis is therefore considered proved.
    An adage regarding this fallacy from the philosophy of science is that “absence of evidence is not evidence of absence”: Not having evidence for something is not proof that something is not or cannot be true. Similarly, merely not having evidence for a particular proposition is not proof that an alternative proposition is instead the case—it is simply lack of evidence, and nothing more. This is not the same as arguing against something that can, by its nature, never be proven.
    Argument from personal incredulity
    Two common versions of the argument from personal incredulity are:
    • “I can’t believe this is possible, so it can’t be true.” (The person is asserting that a proposition must be wrong because he or she is (or claims to be) unable or unwilling to fully consider that it might be true, or is unwilling to believe evidence which does not support her or his preferred view.)
    • “That’s not what people say about this; people instead agree with what I am saying.” (Here the person is asserting that a proposition must be inaccurate because the opinion of “people in general” is claimed to agree with the speaker’s opinion, without offering specific evidence in support of the alternative view.) This is also called argumentum ad populum.
    An argument from personal incredulity is the same as an argument from ignorance only if the person making the argument has solely their particular personal belief in the impossibility of the one scenario as “evidence” that the alternative scenario is true (i.e., the person lacks relevant evidence specifically for the alternative scenario).
    Quite commonly, the argument from personal incredulity is used in combination with some evidence in an attempt to sway opinion towards a preferred conclusion. Here too, it is a logical fallacy to the degree that the personal incredulity is offered as further “evidence.” In such an instance, the person making the argument has inserted a personal bias in an attempt to strengthen the argument for acceptance of her or his preferred conclusion.

    Ted,

    Given your clear bias how could anyone trust the results of your “testing”?

  2. Oolong Says:

    wow …. let see here first Ted goes over what he thinks are going to be the ‘possible’ pluses and minuses of the new wheel size vs the existing two standards and ends his thoughts with the following statement about how we will not really know until we get to ride them :

    Finally, following this to it’s conclusion, you have a choice in 27five that can either be seen as a compromise between 26 and 29, or “the best of both worldsâ€?, depending on your outlook. Certainly 27five will have some features that are attractive, but my question is will it be a difference that is noticeable? Is the mix of some big wheeled features and small wheeled features going to be a good one, or will it just “muddy upâ€? the outcome? Only ride time will discern this for me, and there is something in the works that if it comes to fruition, will allow me the chance to try out my theroies for real on a trail.

    After the determination has been made about performance, a determination about the choice can be made. It’s always good to have choices. As long as they make sense, anyway. Only time and public opinion will be able to help clear that up. In the meantime, lets ride!

    Then bloody tongue blasts him for his ignorance by telling us the Two most common forms of the argument from ignorance using four different bullet points. And finishes by saying he will never believe what Ted has to say about this subject because we all know that Ted enjoys the 29er format.

    Personally I will be happy to hear from Ted when he gets the chance to ride on the new size even knowing his current preference. If after riding on them Ted has nothing good to say about them I will know that is his opinion of the ride as someone who enjoys the Ride over, and momentum keeping ability of the 29ers. If Ted does the same thing he did after trying the 29er and starts telling us how great the new size is and that we should all be riding it, I will be doing my up most to get a Test ride somewhere asap instead of waiting for my LBS to have a few models on the floor before trying it out. Just because Ted is currently a 29er rider doesn’t mean he will not be one of the first to switch if he really gets a better ride, It didn’t stop him from switching to the big wheels when everyone was saying how they just slow you down and make you work harder.

    Time to finish my morning Tea and wish I could go for a long peaceful bike ride this morning.

    Eric

  3. carno Says:

    Off subject, (for those without a degree in poli-sci), here are some pics and words regarding the upcoming Fisher HiFi Pro 29er, (and other 2008 Fishers). First article is very positive toward the HiFi 29er:

    http://www.singletrackworld.com/article.php?sid=2514

    http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/2008-gary-fisher-11657

  4. jb Says:

    Speculation without evidence is the foundation of the internet. Welcome to 1995, tongue. Since objectivity by definition does not exist, personal bias is understood and accepted by intelligent people who give weight to others’ judgments knowing how their background experience may affect their current opinions.

    The important thing is transparency. I think it’s clear on a site named “Twentynineinches.com” where everyone’s coming from. If you don’t value the opinions of a reviewer approaching a product test from this viewpoint, then there are plenty of other websites to visit with reviewers who tackle product reviews from different perspectives.

    As one who rides a 29er, I would find a review of a 27.5 bike from a fellow 29er rider FAR more valuable than a 27.5 review written by a rider of 26’s…

  5. cyclist Says:

    First i want to address the idea of someone being a cyclist and not a 29’er rider or a 26’er rider. people who’s opinion i trust most ride all styles of bikes. road, mtn, cross, commute, utilitarian, touring…… i don’t care about the wheel size i just want the best product for the situation. if you are over say 5’4″ then yes the 29’er is a preferred choice for offroad riding. IF however you are under 5’4″ (yes small people also ride bikes) then why would it not be smart for them to also choose the BEST option. in this scenario it might be the 27.5″ platform.

    now there seems to be the other question of how the big companies are all struggling with the idea of how to make a Full Suspension 29’er that does not 1)weigh to much, 2) have wheel base issues once you add the 100 – 120mm travel forks 3) standover issues because of an even taller front end….. now do you really think these companies are going to ingnore the option of 27.5″ if it is the answer to these said problems? i think not.

    open your eyes.

  6. Guitar Ted Says:

    Wow!

    bloody tongue: I don’t know anybody that’s not biased. The notion that someone is totally unbiased is naive. That said, you could have just said I am full of B.S. and saved yourself a ton of keystrokes. 😉

    oolong & jb: Seems like you two have a handle on this. Enjoy your next bike rides……on whatever bikes you choose! 🙂

    cyclist: I believe that there are already plenty of examples of full suspension 29″ers that are garnering rave reviews. Some even are being ridden by folks in the 5’4″-5’7″ range, (Lenz Leviathan for one) I am not discounting your ideas for a 27fiver FS bike, I’m just saying that the 29″er FS is alive and well. Not a problem really.

    If in fact 27five answers a lot of these problems in a better way, then yes, perhaps one day the industry at large will adopt the wheel size as a widely used “standard”. Until then, the jury is still out. Lots of folks will be riding 27five to find out for themselves just what is going on with the format. I look forward to their reports and hopefully I’ll be able to add my own soon.

  7. trainwreck Says:

    hey! i would like to invite everyone here over to my new website. http://www.28point25inches.com! it’s the next best thing! you wait and see. so come on over…maybe…if you want to…

  8. BearSquirrel Says:

    There is a balance to be struck here between wheel weight, wheel strength and rollover capability. Perhaps a 27.5 bike is the “sweet spot”. However, I really don’t care.

    29ers have an advantage over 26ers in rollover and maintaining momentum. They are now in common availability. However, they’re not in UNIVERSAL availability (Giant, Santa Cruz, others). Until they are, any new wheel size will come at the expense of 29ers as opposed to 26ers as 26er are the established universal norm.

    27.5 Tires … They’ll come at the expense of 29er tires
    27.5 Forks … Even worse, every 27.5 fork means a 29er fork model that will not appear.
    27.5 Rims … As far as MTBs go, they’ll only steal thunder from a VERY limited selection of 29er rims.

    My guess is that the industry will by and large simply ignore 650b. They will rightly conclude that there are already enough issues to deal with when supporting both 26er and 29er product lines.

    BTW, all this goes for 32ers and 36ers as well. After 29ers replace the cross country segment of the market, it will be time to start talking about a new wheel standard.

  9. Vic Says:

    OK, at the risk of being redundant, since no one responded directly to my earlier post regarding lack of major manufacturer and resulting parts scarcity, I am going to say it again.

    IF NO MAJOR BIKE MANUFACTURER PUSHES 27.5 IT WILL GO NOWHERE AND SINCE GIANT, SPECIALIZED, TREK FISHER ETC ARE NOT BUILDING 27.5’s THERE WILL BE NO SUSPENSION FORKS, THERE WILL BE VERY FEW TIRES, THERE WILL BE VERY FEW WHEELS AND MOST BIKE SHOPS WILL CARRY NO PARTS AND NO MATTER HOW GOOD IT IS, IT WILL DRY UP AND GO AWAY.

    If it were not for fisher where would 29ers be?

    So, how bout we save the 27.5 conversation for sometime in the future if or when it becomes relevant? I have nothing against the idea of a 27.5 wheel, it is just that I am as likely to see one in person in the next year as I am Bigfoot or the Lock Ness Monster.

    It is odd to me that the cover story for the last few days on TWENTYNINEINCHES.COM has been about a wheel size that likely exists on fewer than ten bikes on the planet. Meanwhile I have to surf other mtn bike sites to find out what is currently happening in the 29er world.

    Vic

  10. Guitar Ted Says:

    Vic: It’s a good thing you weren’t saying this in ’99 about 29″ers, because you obviusly would have been dead wrong. I don’t know what will happen with 27five, but it’s already five years ahead of where 29″ers were in 1999.

  11. vic Says:

    Fisher has been on board with 29ers from the start. Without them the platform would be an anecdote. Fortunately for us, Gary pushed the idea.

  12. Guitar Ted Says:

    vic, in 2002, yes. However, the Nanoraptor was here in ’99 which ushered in the modern 29″er era. Before that, we had Willits, Bruce Gordon, Diamondback, Bianchi, and Specialized who all made fat tired (for the era) off road bikes that are the percursors to what Gary, et all picked up on later. Even the Manitou 700c fork predates Gary’s efforts by a bit.

    Certainly Gary Fisher is to be thanked for propelling the idea forwards a little faster than it might have gone, but to say it would have been nothing but an anecdote is not really very realistic, in my opinion.

  13. TrailTech Says:

    Anybody know any history on this wheel size? Did it come into use because earlier wheel making technology couldn’t produce durable 700c setups? Looks like it gets used on utilitarian type bikes elsewhere in the world. Why is it popular with the long distance road crowd?

  14. Seven Common Fallacies About Guitar Playing Says:

    […] 27Five: &#65n Opini&#111n | Twent&#121 Nine Inc&#104es […]

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